The trends shaping the future of innovation in financial services

DM: Welcome to Banking Blueprints Podcast with Zafin and me, your podcast host, Dharmesh Mistry. Throughout this inaugural season, we’ll delve into the realms of banking innovation, exploring strategies for breaking free from traditional constraints, and innovating beyond the core. This week’s special guest is Kam Chana, who has made a successful career out of driving innovation in financial services giants like BlackRock, Fidelity and Barclays. And I’ve had the great pleasure of working with Kam at core banking vendor Temenos and have to say her passion and focus on innovation is extremely inspiring.

So I’m really excited to have her on the show and discuss how banks can drive innovation, what holds them back and everything around innovation. But firstly, I’d like Kam to give you guys a bit of an introduction about herself and and say a little bit about why you focus on innovation so much, Kam.

KC: Good morning, Dharmesh. Thank you so much for having me. It’s genuinely a pleasure to be here and to be in a conversation with you of all people. I do listen to a lot of your podcasts. So it thrills me and I feel very privileged that I’m now your guest, which is very exciting. So gosh, my story in innovation. It feels like it feels like a long, a long devotion to innovation. Throughout my entire career, which started way back in the.com boom, where I very luckily landed on my feet at a company that was just smashing at the time, Charles Schwab, and learnt very quickly how important it was to put the human at the centre of everything you’re doing as an organization.

And that really was where I cut my teeth as someone who understood how design worked with business objectives and worked with technology objectives and worked with the general growth of an organization.

I got trained in design thinking back then but was never brave enough to call myself a designer and I used design as that bridge between business and tech and it worked so well at Schwab.

I used it as a framework throughout the rest of my career when I moved to Fidelity, BlackRock, Barclays, RBS at the time, NatWest now a small hedge fund in Switzerland where we’d had some really, really good fun doing amazing things.

But it’s always been the same framework and the same approach to innovation, which is putting the human at the centre of what we’re trying to do as an organization. Right the way up to more recent history where we met at Temenos where we did some great work together. And now more recently, I’ve been educating on design in financial services at the RCA where I’m still currently a visiting lecturer. But over the past couple of years, I set up a lab which looked at where we really need to focus our attention when it comes to innovating in financial services which I can talk to later.

And now to continue my journey into innovation, I’m at the London Stock Exchange Group where I’m focusing on the product experience around delivering tools around analytics and AI. So the journey continues. It’s a it’s a lifelong devotion by the sounds of things for me. And I can honestly say I’m as thrilled to be in it now as I was back in the early or late 1990s, early 2000s.

DM: I mean, I genuinely say that it’s inspiring that even in what little spare time you must have, you’re spending time on innovation, you know, and bringing the students up to speed with the process.

Because I mean, you’ve got an immense amount of experience in this space, and I generally don’t know anyone that’s done more on innovation than you. So it’s a real honour to have you on the show and, you know, to cover this topic and who’s the best expert I could think of? Well, it was you, right?

So my first question really is, is really, I mean, I think I know the answer to this. But I’m going to ask it anyway, which is, do you think banks are held back on innovation? And if you do, then you know, what do you think holds them back?

KC: I think it’s a, it’s a fundamental question that we should really sort of pause and think more about. And I

think if I may take a step back first and just talk about the word innovation, because I think that in itself is a little bit problematic.

Innovation is such a misunderstood term and such a loaded term as well. You know, you ask half a dozen people in your network what they mean by innovation and some will say, some might say AI, some might say horizon three thinking, some might say disruption, some might say just getting the basics right.

And they would all be, they would all be right because the reality of innovation is that it’s growth. So if you replace the word innovation in every organization with how do we grow as an organization, then it becomes real, then it becomes tablestakes.

Whereas a lot of the time, innovation feels like it sits in a in a different team, in a cool part of the city with people wearing cool clothes and talking into the design language that nobody understands. And that’s not really what innovation is.

Innovation is growth first and foremost. Grow your product, grow your offering, grow your, grow your value.

And how do you grow that value? You grow it based on what people need, what your target market that you might have chosen two years ago or 25 years ago, what is it that they need and how has life changed and how has business changed so that we can adapt to what they need.

So I think based on that definition I think a lot of banks are missing a trick on how to grow and a lot of innovation can be seen as theatrical, can be seen as nice to haves, can be seen as theoretically interesting. But in the real world this it’s never actually going to generate revenue.

But I think there’s so much opportunity for banks to innovate that if innovation as a concept and growth as a concept isn’t integrated in the day-to-day, then I think it’s such a lost opportunity for so many banks.

DM: See, this is what I love about you is that you know, even something like innovation, which we all think we understand, you actually explain it in a really simple way. And I like and it’s really precise because I like the fact that you focus on growth because you’re right.

You know, a lot of us, you know, tend to think of innovation as doing something that’s kind of new and funky. It doesn’t necessarily have any benefits to anyone, right?

It’s just doing something different. So the focus on growth is really good because I think also you know banks sometimes tend to shy away from innovation, not seeing any benefits from it. So you know if the benefit is growth then absolutely they’re going to do more of it. So I guess you know once we understand what innovation is, how should a bank go about driving innovation and doing it properly?

KC: Now there’s a loaded question. I could possibly start with how not to do it properly. And that would be to go off and think about the Tech 1st. And I and I say that with great love and admiration for all of my tech colleagues around the world.

But I’ve seen it over and over again that a lot of the time innovation starts with there’s some new tech out there, there’s the Internet, let’s do something with it, there’s mobile, let’s do something with it and now there’s AI, let’s do something with it.

And that’s great and that could be that’s a really nice starting point sometimes for innovating.

But then you’re effectively that hammer looking for a nail, you’re looking for a use case and then you know we’re sort of out hunting for use cases for a particular technology and that’s fine too.

But it’s a much harder way of getting to real innovation. So I would say that the right way is not to start with the tech and it’s not necessarily even to start with trying to just find use cases, it’s to start with trying to understand who your, who your customers are like it. You know Simon Sinek talks about the big why, why are we even here? Who are our customers, what are they struggling with and why are we serving them, what is it that we’ve got that gives them greater value than anyone else could?

So it all starts with the customer. And I would go, I would even strip back the word customer to the person that you’re trying to serve.

A lot of the time people talk about human centre design and I think that’s great. But the word human becomes so broad and generic, no one really knows what to do with it.

But if you strip back your business model to the person who is actually using your service, who is getting value from it? Who is that person? What are they trying to do? What’s keeping them awake at night? What’s causing them pain? What’s stopping them from getting their job done in a way that they want to do it and what does good look like for them?

We rarely ask those questions. We quite often make a lot of assumptions that we know who our segments are.

But those assumptions, as small as they might seem, are what trips us up over time because they grow like a snowball effect and then they become indoctrinated in organizations that this is the way people use our product.

We know that we understand our customers, but I would say month after month after month you should be in front of your actual users and future users, understanding their value system, their job, their workflows, their enquiries, how they’re, how they’re operating in their worlds, get their job done. That’s where we fit in as people who are delivering value in delivering a service.

So start with the person you’re serving and then start to understand the technology layers and the business layers that sit around that in order to distribute that value to them. And there’s a final wrapper around all of this, which, which my time at Temenos was, was fascinating because I was gifted the time to go away and speak to so many banks around the world and understand why their innovation wasn’t working. And there was an insight that really was so obvious that it blew my mind that we didn’t realise this sooner.

And it was culture. It was the internal culture that stopped banks and organisations in general from innovating. Because you can come up with a great you can understand your customers and your person, the person you’re designing for. You can design an amazing solution for them. You can work with product to understand how we’re going to get it to market.

But if the rest of the organization isn’t set up in a way to change the narrative on what we’re now delivering, well, then you get stuck in this sort of legacy mode. You know, a term we use often in our industry of this is the way we’ve always done things. And therefore this is the way we’re going to continue doing things.

And people might come in and try to change that, but that’s risky and we don’t like risk. So we’re going to unconsciously block that and make sure that we don’t bring in any risk in, in the way that we identify new product opportunity and take it to market.

So if I were to say what you know, what are the, the two biggest blockers to innovation from a cultural perspective, it’s this, it’s this bizarre relationship with risk, which is understandable. You want to make sure that your organization is sustainable, but it’s where risk sits.

And too often in most organization, it sits at the point where you’ve got too many people involved, too many expensive engineers involved. You’ve built stuff, you’ve made commitments, and you’ve got no choice but to now deliver something. That in itself brings in risk.

If you up streamed that and did it right at the very beginning where what you’re designing is a hypothesis and you do it in a in a design prototype, you do it in a way that you haven’t coded a single thing.

You don’t make any commitments to the market, but you really test your hypothesis before you build anything that de-risks it.

And so when we here in the market, organisations like Amazon and others talking about fast failure, that’s where they’re failing fast. They’re failing fast way upstream where it’s an idea before you put any expensive engineering or product management resource or deployment resource anywhere near it.

And that’s where that’s where the whole concept of service design is so powerful because it can take an idea and in a very short space of time it can prove if that idea has value to your end users, if it has value to the business and whether it can be built and that’s pretty powerful. So that’s the one feature of a culture that keeps tripping us up.

The other feature is this organizational structure that is always siloed. So this kind of siloed, waterfall, handy-offy kind of culture which is, you know, one party does something and hands it off to another party, hands it off to another party and that in itself creates risk of, you know, what are we handing off.

So multidisciplinary teams right from the get-go right from the very point at which we think we’ve identified a challenge in the market that we want to respond to.

Get tech, business design, risk, legal, compliance, get everyone together and discuss it and talk about it and hypothesize it together, design it together. And then once everyone has a clear understanding of what the human need is and what the challenges that we’re trying to solve for, then start to then bring in your culture of fast delivery to make sure that you can respond to that.

But by that point you’ve created a culture where everyone’s talking to each other and I was honestly, I was so lucky that I landed at Charles Schwab early on in my career because they were agile with a little A, you know, they were agile before Agile became a thing.

And I remember sort of most mornings sitting around a little table with the architect, with a business analyst, with a designer, with compliance, you know, with a developer, with all the people you need to have a sensible discussion, make some decisions and move forward.

And that works. And so it’s real nuance on those two factors.

DM: I mean it’s, you know, I’ve sat in organizations before and the media or the press or you know, the external world is saying to the CEO or AI is going to change the world, you know, therefore you must invest.

And it’s literally come straight down from the CEO, what are we doing on AI, you know or what are we doing because the Internet’s here now, you know, etcetera.

So, so I can understand that sometimes it feels like it starts with the tech. But these are the kind of trends I guess you know that have driven decisions in the past to kind of innovate on some particular technology.

I mean talking about trends, what, what do you see as the trends that are driving innovation right now?

KC: Well, I think if I can, if I can just take your statement and just unpack a little bit. I 100% agree with you that technology, these big trends coming through with technology, they are something that we should absolutely focus on and find out how to respond to.

The difference is to temper those with what’s going on in other parts of the world as well. So other lens such as what is happening with real people, what are the shifting behaviours, what’s happening globally, what’s happening around people’s movement and ageing and behaviours and shifts in the way that we see and engage with the world. You know, all of that changes if you’re if you’re a 30-year old organization, the world has fundamentally changed over and over again since you created your original product.

So to temper those technology trends with societal trends and also business trends and from and this is the this is the approach we take at the at the RCA when we talk to students. So I had a real challenge with students originally which is you know a lot of them were thinking fintech was all about tech which understandably Fintech is.

So we talked about the future of financial services and we talked about the future of our relationship with money. So we did. We worked really hard to reframe what what it means to look at financial services and we carried out a piece of research with some of our professors and colleagues at the college to identify from a very societal perspective.

And luckily none of these people had ever worked in financial services before, which was refreshing.

And so we explored from a societal perspective what are the key trends, what are the key shifts in behaviour and society that we need to be, we need to be thinking about. And they were delightfully surprising because you can often think it’s the same stuff like you know climate change and all the rest of it and yes it includes those, but it’s way bigger.

So if I can share some of those with you and your audience, I’d, I’d love to try and make all our research as open source as possible. So, so the six key trends firstly were firstly around younger people coming through.

So we did a lot of research on Gen Z broadly and to understand what’s going on with Gen Z and the biggest challenge with Gen Z at the moment around financial services and this might even pertain to other generations too.

So none of these are specific to a demographic is the lack of empowerment and the struggle to make choices around their their financial decision making in life.

So we sort of had this title, which is Gen Z and rampant anxiety and how might we build resilience and help them navigate uncharted territory, the overwhelm and confusion of the current landscape that they find themselves in?

We then zoomed in on, well, what does that mean in terms of a shifting behaviour?

They’re seeking information, that’s what they’re doing. So you know whatever whatever the use case is, Gen Z are desperate to find the right information that can help them make decisions and the resulting customer need is just help me get to the right information at the right time in the right way. What does that, what might that even look like?

You know, we’ve talked at various conferences about, you know, concierge, A concierge service, a buddy service, a financial aid. You know, the devil and the Angel on my shoulder who are sort of constantly helping me make decisions.

But when you think about AI, AI is a perfect fit for that need. So now you have a scenario where there’s a big societal shift and resulting needs and a technology trend that can actually meet it.

Another trends that came through. If I can continue to share, there’s a massive movement around migration and mobility of work. So there’s a sort of this reinvention of work life balance and work life lifestyle. In the rejection of old models of work and the traditional borders and geography based around them.

So to give you an example, currently, and this is a phenomenal number, there’s 35 million digital nomads around the world. And how often do we need as a use case? Never. Rarely.

By 20-30 there’ll be a billion digital nomads around the world.

DM: I read about this guy in Germany that’s effectively spent an entire year living on the train. He lived on a train, right?

And so he’s got no home, but he’s working as a nomad on the train during the day. Then he gets one of those sleeper trains overnight and sleeps on the train. And that’s his lifestyle. That’s what he said. Basically, I get to see, you know, more of Germany and I’m not paying bills like everyone else, right?

But it’s a lifestyle choice. I mean, it’s totally alien to us. But this is a fundamental change. You know, I think you’re right.

KC: It might be alien. It’s alien from a sort of common perception point of view. But when you think that 35 million people are doing that in some form, you know, maybe not everyone’s going to train, but in some form, you know everyone’s, you know there’s a there’s a 35 million person cohort that they’re doing this.

And it’s there was a really interesting survey where it said something like 8% of us want to be digital nomads, but we’re not entirely sure how.

So that in itself presents an incredible opportunity when you think about what are all the needs around people who are reprioritizing their lives, moving geographies, moving their families around, moving themselves around, working around different borders and all the complexities that come out of that. So we’ve actually spoken to a lot of digital nomads.

One of our students, Pat, she did a beautiful project on how might we serve digital nomads, which ultimately came down to a better way of identifying the creditworthiness of a digital nomads.

That’s generally the challenge. You live in the UK, you have a credit score, you move to Lisbon, you move to, you move to New Mexico City, you move to another part of the world.

That credit scoring suddenly has no value, and she and her team created this beautiful concept of a a reputee butterfly.

You know this sort of credit score that moved around with you and captured your behaviour, captured your reputation and your reputable behaviour as you moved around the world to create an alternative credit score

that could be used locally to open up the services that you need, be that renting an apartment or renting a car or whatever it might be.

So there’s another beautiful example of an incredibly large market of a now validated human need and the tech that’s available to serve it.

DM: Fantastic. Can we kind of zip through the other four quickly?

KC: We can zip through the other four. OK, absolutely happy to.

So now you know in in the theme of reinventing work and life, you’ve got this demographic shift of a growing population of older people. So, that that sort of cohort of people over 55 are now the biggest living cohort in I believe it’s more sort of Western Hemisphere rather than Asia.

So now you have a scenario where almost a third of your population is over 55 and they’re getting younger. We’ve got this concept of the 100-year life, we’re living longer.

You know 50 is the new 40, 60 is the new 50. We’re reorganising our life priorities at later stages in life, getting married again, moving again, starting up a new business at 50 or 60 or even 70, working longer, choosing not to retire or not being able to retire or retiring and setting up a business anyway.

So, so, so this category we generally call living again because it feels so empowering for older people to sort of be able to make, to make choices.

Now what’s really interesting here is that lives are becoming more fractional. So I’m not retiring at 65 or 70.

I might retire at 50 and but I might reorganize my life so that I can start work again and then I might have another mini retirement when I’m 60 and then another mini retirement when I’m 70.

So this kind of fractional living is a trend that that we notice coming out of this piece of research and the resulting need there is this connectivity for that fractional and re-evaluated living. So meet me in my life and help me streamline my life choices is becoming a pronounced human need.

Area 4 is financial well-being. Now this you know the cost of living crisis is sort of fits into this And generally what we found in the research was this lack of financial resilience to weather economic shocks and instability.

So it’s not that people don’t have an income, it’s the fact that majority of people aren’t sure about whether they’re able to weather any more shocks and instability.

You know, whether you’re even financially secure, You haven’t quite figured out if there’s a if there’s another Ukraine war, if there’s another, if there’s more political instability, can my current income actually deal with that? And the large majority of us just aren’t sure.

What that actually means is that we as a society needs to become more agile. We need to be get more comfortable with agility and be able to smartly navigate those choices and shifting norms.

So if the land beneath us is going to shift more consistently than we’re used to and comfortable with, how do how do we deal with that? And how can banks help us to deal with that, knowing that no one’s getting married at 25, having children at 30, living in a house for 40 years and retiring at 65?

That’s just that’s just not how it works anymore.

So the overriding need that comes out of that trend is agency enable me to regain control. It’s not. It’s more than control. It’s agency give me give me some control back.

The 5th area is super interesting and it can only come out of an academic institution because I thought it was going to be climate change, but they surprised me and the trend is actually this conflict, it’s a very human conflict between values and identity.

So I identify as someone who cares about the environment, but I also value having my holidays every year. I also value being able to jump in a car and see my parents if I want to or take my kids to stuff over the weekend, even though I could probably cycle them.

So there’s a complex tension between ourselves, other people and the planet. And that’s a very deep trend that we’re seeing. And the resulting shifting behaviour is a protection of your identity and your assets.

So how can I feel safe? As I’m having to balance my choices and do the right thing for myself, others and the planet, navigating these choices is becoming increasingly not only hard but politically laden.

You see this on social media playing out in in the sort of the comment sections of anything around climate change. So what’s the resulting need?

Security, you know, enable me to feel safe on a complex in a complex and often threatening world, help me to make the right choices so that I can continue to live by my own values and identity, but also by the collective values around protecting the planet and sustainability.

And then the final one, we’ve done a few projects on this. So we’ve got some really nice examples of innovation is around normalizing inclusivity.

Now this, this actually is pretty broad and we really toiled over this one because we thought it was about neurodivergence, then we thought it was about equality and diversity and gender balance, but it was really all of those, it was all of those.

So we sort of took a big step back and realized that what’s required is some element of repairing the damage of living in a system designed for everyone else.

So this is gender, age, ethnicity, sexuality, physicality, your neurotypes, everything. Within that. We sort of deep dived into Neurodivergent, which is a hugely trending area in terms of people’s behaviours.

And the numbers are pretty surprising that almost 30% of the UK, this is just UK example, we have other other stats for around the world, 30% of the UK population are now considered to be neurodiverse.

When you look at Gen Z who currently are up to about 29, 30% of those are ADHD and a third of those have compulsive spending disorders. I mean the minute you narrow this down people’s relationship with money, it gets super interesting.

And then when you think about regulatory developments such as consumer duty, you start to think, well, hold on a second, there’s an opportunity to innovate here. If a third of, if a third of the population are neurodivergent and the challenges we’re having is in being able to deal with systems and sequencing and the way that information is presented to us, then that’s low hanging fruit.

Let’s get all over that the resulting trend around normalizing inclusivity, sorry the hifting behaviour is very similar to the one before which is this need to have agency and feel safe in in being able to navigate new services and the overall need is transparency.

It’s enabled me to trust you and the system or and this is I’m just quoting here, this isn’t me.

“Are you just another pseudo bank trying to screw me over?”, which is one we had from our research which which did make me giggle.

But you see there Dharmesh, you know there’s massive, massive trends that have got nothing to do with tech. But you can see also that tech has so much opportunity to solve those.

DM: Yeah, I mean the thing I like about it is that, you know, they’re great examples of how things are changing. And if you don’t address the specific needs of those changes, you’re going to lose those customers, right?

And it’s because they need that other thing, right?

You know, if you’re a migrant or a refugee, etcetera, you need security and identity as part of your financial services. If you’re in the ageing population, you want, better financial management, you want the flexibility to handle the business as well as a personal account, right?

So these are all like new needs that you know the account that I had 20 years ago doesn’t necessarily service anymore, right. So what I love about these trends is, is you could almost say well these, these are niches, but without any physical boundaries, these niches are, these niches are massive as you said there were 35 million in one category.

So I think you can really start a specialized set of services around this stuff and drive greater innovation. I mean, I’m sure, when you looked at these trends, you would have identified some solutions or innovations yourself from your groups.

I mean, you know, in the interest of time, can you give us a couple of examples of things that came out of that, you know, as in innovations?

KC: Yeah, I can. I can give you one that was sobering and then I can give you one that was just pure joy.

And we’ll start with the sobering one. We’re looking at gender, gender imbalance in in financial services. We were looking at women and we took a big step back and looked at, you know why, why are we in a situation where women are so disadvantaged generally around financial services?

And sort of diving into this space, the student fabulous student who took on this project identified a behaviour where most women are brilliant at day-to-day financial management.

A lot of the longer-term investment planning is done by their male counterparts, their husbands, partners, whoever. And there’s this scenario where generally men fortunately pass on, commonly a lot more before a lot earlier than women.

So there’s this scenario where a woman becomes widowed and all her long-term financial planning has been done by her husband, and suddenly, she finds herself being given this estate.

Now what’s really interesting is that everyone talks about the transfer of wealth and they talk about the transfer of wealth being from one generation to the next generation.

This is a really interesting scenario where the transfer of wealth is going from the male to the husband to the wife, the male to the woman and in that there’s no transfer of education or planning or strategy or understanding why that investment portfolio is being pulled together the way it is.

70% of widows will fire their financial advisor within the first year of being handed over that family wealth.

DM: Why is that?

KC: Because they don’t trust their husband’s IFA. The IFA is usually a male.

They find that the male financial advisor doesn’t understand what’s important to the woman and so the woman just says right, you don’t understand my needs, therefore I’m not going to work with you. But instead of there being a service to support women and what’s important to women, which again based on research is generally is generally education, family, well-being. And there’s a sort of a broader area around education.

So health, education, family well-being, they retrench, so they’ll just park it somewhere and they will no longer actively manage that investment portfolio.

So what this student moniker came up with was this service where we would work with wealth managers and identify female women IFAs who better understand like create a community around female IFAs who can start to advise women on what they should do with their new found wealth based around their needs and create some community around that so that other widows can support each other as well. And then other widows can recommend female IFAs or even male IFAs, but who understand what the female investor is now looking for.

So that you know that was one really interesting scenario and a really interesting market opportunity as well a joyful one was based around neurodivergence and these were three fabulous students and they were, they were zoning in on the challenge of compulsive spending disorders with Gen Z and they created a tool where they came up with three options.

They also identified that Gen Z, large majority of Gen Z prefer their pets over their partners.

So they created this tool where if you are sort of scrolling and shopping online they would pause your shopping and they would a little cat would appear and you can feed the cat and you can stroke the cat.

So now they’re weaving in the neuroscience of how to engage with your oxytocin and dopamine. Your dopamine is triggered by your shopping and now they need to bring some oxytocin and serotonin in by having you care for something.

So this cat appears and you feed it and you nurture it. That was option one. Option two was slightly more aggressive, which was just so amusing to see.

Option two was you. You get given a serene image of a lake and some mountains, but if you scroll away from that and carry on shopping, they blow up your basket.

So literally they run a piece of code that empties your shopping basket, which didn’t get voted very highly for obvious reasons because that would infuriate most people.

But the third was super interesting. It’s something that we would never have come up with because of the generation that we’re in.

The third option was knowing how Gen Z think and where Gen Z are living and what Gen Z are doing.

They came up with this option which I called scratch the itch option, which was they would say fine, buy the outfit, but you’re going to buy it in the Metaverse.

You’re going to buy it in a digital universe and you’re going to buy it with digital currency and or digital tokens and your avatar is going to wear it.

So you get to scratch the itch, you get to buy the outfit so you get the dopamine hit, you get to wear it, you get the dopamine hit your avatar friends get to see you wearing it. You get the dopamine hit.

The real money that you haven’t spent then gets moved into a part short-term, medium-term savings account for your deposit, for your house and your long-term pension.

Now, I thought that was super clever, really clever.

DM: Really clever. I mean, I get fairly deep into understanding what drives people to spend in the 1st place, which is the important thing. I mean, I yeah, I mean, I’d like to see a bank do that.

KC: Well, you know, we haven’t, we have those students available. They’re keen to prototype their ideas. If there’s any banks out there who are keen to try it out, get in touch.

DM: Oh, fantastic. I mean, and look, I have had the pleasure of interacting with some of your students and they are some extremely bright minds and what I loved about them is the freshness of their ideas. It’s just so like, yeah, I wish I’d had them in the bank when I was working in the bank, you know, absolutely fantastic.

Look, I’m sorry, but we have kind of run out of time and it’s, I could carry on this conversation with the rest of the day, you know that, Cam, But it’s been a real pleasure to have you on the show and really appreciate you sharing your insights with us. Thank you so much, Cam.

KC: Thank you for having me, Dharmesh. It’s been an absolute pleasure.